>> president obama unveiling his immigration plan in las vegas, doubling down, get ready to pay up. >> welcome i am charles payne for neil cavuto, partnership senators announces their plans yesterday, and president going further rolling out a proposal including more border security, cracking down on companies hiring illegals, and making it easier for 11 million illegals can be testimony citizens, -- to

become citizens, and he is in a rush to make it happen. >> i will send up a bill based on my proposal and insist they vote on it right away. >> the crowd is cheering but my first guest is worrying. tucker carlson said that this plan would cost taxpayers billion a year, tucker, the crowd does not worry about who is paying for this but how much could it cost us? >> a great deal, do the math, 11 million, people here illegally, this path toe citizen ship would make every wobble i thinkable for -- make every wobble i thinkable for benefits, that would encourage a lot more illegal immigration, you could

look at a country on hook for massive new entitlement spending as a result. >> people would say, you know we had an election, spends right now is not a care, the american people don't care. they just want to quote, unquote, do the right thing, that the right thing to to free a path to citizenship for the people. >> i think strictly speaking that is probably right, 65 % of people indicate they would like it, numbers do not change, math does not change, it is baked into the universe, if you spend more than you bridg bring in doo bankrupt, but there is a political component, more immigrants mean more democratic voters, you have to think that is foremost in the president's mind. >> i guess the threat of sending his proposal, means i'm going to pit out spot, and the

republicans that don't vote for this, you will sink further ins a dprova -- in disapproval with hispanics. >> that is liz program. get big or lose big in a way that hispanic voters get's clear message that republican party does not like you, a lot of people believe he hopes to fail in the effort to get legislation thugh congress, i don't know, but a compromise does not help him. >> president could not get it done in 4 years, not that he put a lot of effort into it, this is one of those things smoke is clears scperksz heck is and the, they have to step up to the plate now? >> republican leadership is really afraid of the demographic shift in u.s., here is the core problem with this idea, the president of right when he said we need high skilled immigration, that a lot of start ups are by immigrants, but the

overwhelming majority of immigrants, 80% at least are low education, low skilled, we're a post industrial economy, not clear what the new economy is, we are not an steel economy more an -- we're not an industrial economy more an agricultural one. no one has provided the answer to that. >> one heck of a quandry. >> before i let you go, marko rubio, one of the biggest names of the republican pushing for this, this is a win-win for president to your point but it seems like a lose-lose for g.o.p., can he come out smelling like a rose. >> of course senator rubio is thinking about his position went the party, he is trying to strike some middle ground against anti-immigration absolutists on one side, and business community on the other. it seems that this comes to border enforcement, if rubio can

convince republican primary voter ease is for border enforcement first, he comes out well. >> the president will come out well, and the rest of us will have one big tab, what the heck, put it with the rest of them, thank you, tucker. >> is there a new sheriff in town. >> >> a calling in to sheriff, nobody messes with joe. >> tell that to real sheriff joe, sheriff joe arpaio is mad as heck, he tweeted this, president obama keeping calling bp biden sheriff joe, and now -- there is one low one sheriff joe that is me. he does not like sharing his nickname, and he has a few other opinions when it comes to president's plan on reform of immigration, sheriff joe arpaio, welcome to the show. >> i did mention that to the president when i met him, previously, a couple years ago, he didn't know what i was talking about.

maybe he didn't read the teleprompter, that is exciting. >> joed by know ma biden -- joee excited to be compared to you, you might be able to patent the name. >> i've been sheriff for 20 years, trying to do the job, including illegal immigration, i remember hundred days after obama took office they witness after me, they are still after me, i'm in federal court for alleged racial profiling, but i am not going to give up, they want to control my agency it is sad, i'm trying too help the federal government to lock up all people comes into cur country of the united states thousands of them, and i am the bad guy, so, i look forward to see what happens, at the white house. in congress, i have been saying it for years, you know if youment to do something, face

the issue. but why now? we know why now. >> i read where you said you were pleased that federal government is working on a bipartisan effort. but you had question marks, tracking visas, is this realistic? >> they can't even track guys coming into our country, we've arrested people 16 time they come across, they can't track them. as far as making the border secure, i was a regional director of mexico city, and south america, texas, arizona, with u.s. drug enforcement, you will never secure the border completely, we've been fighting the drug problem at that border for how many years ? 50, 60 years? what is this a cop-out, say we'll secure the border first then address the issue. come on that is not doing happen, i don't know. there is pathway to citizenship, that is what this is about.

chip away a little by little. i am insulled. the greatest country in the world you say we can't fine people to cut lettuce, we have import illegal alien to cut lets thank you oletus or give -- lete them visas that is not right. >> what would be the ideal way, if you were in charge, president joe, how would you handle it. >> i know what i would do at the border to keep them from coming in that is critical took i agree with that, i would sense border patrol or the military across the border, and help the mex mebanmexicogovernment like i dis there, trying to stop the problem from coming across the border. that is how you secure the border, there is say problem

with 11 million, if you top believe that figure, i have mixed emotions on that, but my compassion if there is any, which there is, overrides the job i have to do to endorse the laws, i don't know what to do with the 11 million, we've been doing okay. we've been locking them up. >> joe, before i let you go, let's say, rialto is that, this is an attempt to fast track citizenship for those 11 million that would make your job easier, but would it be the right thing to do? >> it is not, i'll tell you why, this is a fairness issue. we have people in the world, waiting to come into our country, legally, then if you cross border you come in illegally, you are -- rewarded, that is not fair, then let everyone come across. and be rewarded bys is citizen , this is a fairness issue too. >> sheriff joe arpaio, the real

sheriff joe thank you. >> thank you. >> teachers, they are getting testy, and trying to stop all tests, how teachers are looking to give students an easy way out, which is making it harder for them. >> remember those breezy point homes up in flames after sandy, get ready for sparks in court, homeowners are looking for payback, and they just might get it. with the spark miles card from capital one, thor gets great rewards for his small business! your boa! [ garth ] thor's small business earns double miles on every purchase, every day! ahh, the new fabrics. put it on my spark card. ow. [ garth ] why settle for less? the spiked heels are working. wait!

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charles: getting a lesson in protesting, teachers in seattle are boycotting standardized tests, and saying they are flawed, and taking away from class time. the standardize tests are said too be needed because they teach kids how it is in the real wor world. joining me, gary, explain what

you mean. >> it is pretty logical, and simple, how do you judge students based on who is smart, and less smart, and where they go to college. it really makes no sense, you know it is funny, every time there is an issue there is a boycott, instead of whining ask complaining come up with a different solution that will help. but the bottom line, in order to understand where a student is, and to understand how good a teacher is, you need these tests, it is crazy to try to get rid of them. charles: caroline, you have to say, there is some way we are to btobe able to measure a students progress, and also what the teachers are doing, if you don't do this, what else would you do? >> there are such things as grades, that is how we used to do it the problem with standardized test there are so many variables involved in learning if you only measure a

few of them that is what is being taught that narrows the curriculum, there are ample studies that shows it does not help to tie student's grades with teachers pay. the teachers do not control the grades of student its has more to do with parents, whether they had breakfast in the morning. charles: wayne, i first i think there is a huge cop-out to say that teachers should not be evaluated and there is no correlation, i had a few good teachers, i will never forget them, i know what they did for me. >> well, i don't know howell you do it we have s.a.t. tests to get to college that is standardized test, everyone takes it. it has been tried for many years. it seems to work. and to a certain extent will be somewhat impaired but you have to do something, you can't say we're not going to test anyone, any moron, i was not a good

student in school, i have to work hard, maybe therefore a bright kid, he did better than i did on the test, if i worked hard i did well, if i didn't work well i didn't, if i didn't learn the subject i did not do well, you have to have a test, the people who are teaching the teachers, who are using this as a defense, and union, the teachers union is using this as a defense because they want the teachers to not -- the poorer teachers not to be unemployed they are trying to get everyone lou the door, it does not work, you know. we're -- it is not a question of equality, we're not equal, we're not all equal and we're not going to be all equal. you cannot force equality. >> nobody is making an argument is get rid of the s.a.t. test, the teachers are saying, the k -12, the pigeonhole teaches to test does not help students, a

vanderbilt student kates they are -- they don't benefit each other, attaching student -- i am sorry student grades with teacher pay is an ineffective way. charles: caroline, hold on, i do want to ask though, is it. >> how do you do it. >> grades. charles: they are giving as to students. >> that who is doing that. >> it has happened, i have seen it happen. >> do have you data. charles: wayne made the point, how do you hold teachers accountable who don't do their jobs, and why do you protect these bad teachers. >> they have been account able. >> they have never been level accountable come on. >> i am a teacher let me explain, there are evaluations, they cause teachers benefit teach target out of the system, because, itf they can't control variables involves in the student grade but they are being

penalized for it, why would they stick around. >> everything in life can about a measuring stick, whether at work or, or in school. you have to have some measurements about what is going on, you have to know what students are doing, what and why. and most important you need to know which teachers are coming into class and doing a great job, versus ones who should not be teaching, if there are no measurement sticks have you too many teachers that are not getting the job done, that means that kids fall through the crack, and education is not highest level. charles: caroline, i was involved with a charter school, for several years, we started with all teachers that were in unions and new york city school system we have all teachers that teach for america, all young, ambitious, bright eyed and bushy tailed, willing to work beyond a rigid set of hours, and the results are there, it is hard to argue that it is any different,

from what we have before with teachers in unions and always protected they always gave their best, some did, but a lot don't. >> you are wrong. there is no data supporting that. this is bad policy with bad side effects. charles: wayne, have the last word. >> wait, wait. >> i want to ask caroline, why, -- what tests would you use for teachers then? >> what test -- a lot of them, including pieinclude peer evalu. >> let me follow that up, you will let somebody else make the judgment, you want someone else's opinion that is wrong.

>> it would measure quality of the teaching,. charles: caroline, i am getting a wrap signal, do we have an education crises in it country. >> yes, it is under funded. charles: okay thank you. >> underfunded. >> right now, president hollywood friends they are acting funny, republicans they are actually getting the last laugh, guess which top left wing star might have delivered the performance of a lifetime?

charles: big hollywood stars help the president keep the white house, today we find one notable liberal wants big time to other side, tim robins donated 5 grand to 10

republicans during a 2006 election cycle. does this show that the left is fickle? >> you know, i think it is really interesting, one that he contributed to was michele bachmann that was -- she is so polarizing on the right, i was like, what is he doing, and suzanne suran don, who he was married to was one of the biggest occupy wall street supporters. charles: i first read the report, i thought what happened she left him for the ping-pong player, i thought he was just upset, this happened before this. >> that was in 06. charles: what the heck that was about? >> i don't know, just because you are in hollywood, and there is a democrat before you does not mean you will automatically agree, mark checke zucker burg n

event for governor chris christie. charles: he is no longer a pure republican. i have if, he is becoming a hybrid, part republican part wharf. >> we'll take him. charles: you may need him. in the meantime, i understand why corporations do it, wall street donates to both sides, would this be an indicator to how he felt at the time knowing that news would come out later, shthat stuff? do people pull you over, and say, i like your side. >> i have been with people that say i agree with your view point but i have to take the opposing view, i think if they would not catch so much heat for it, you would have seen more contributions coming toward

republicans, you know i think that if you are in hollywood, you have to really kind of watch out, who you give your money to. charles: so amazing because, as much as hollywood, actors say they stan for the issues it is still about a quid pro quo, after the last big spending bill they got the huge breaks, everybody got tax hikes but hollywood did not get tax hikes, goldman sachs, for renting was on the space at new freedom tower got a tax break, it is is amazing no one seems to stand on principle but always on their wallet. >> one word comes to mind, that is hypocritical. charles: hollywood and hypocritical, i would have never put those two in the same sentence. how are things for you? the big things with the political act committees is that better or harder or you? >> with a lot of super pacs, i am a big supporter of the super

pacs, but i look -- >> is it easier with one giant super pac. >> it depends on what ar are --u are trying to do if there is a big issue with the nra and gun control, there are a lot out there. charles: popping up crazy. i heard chuck hagel with three super pacs? we'll see this all of the time? >> you know, whenever this starts to run, look for it be on regulated. look for the super paces to be regulated. because you know a lot of people complained on both sides, let's -- for example like george soros with pup et ceter puppet stringn addison with puppet strings. >> would you dare, as someone

who raising money say it is maybe tainting the system? >> charles, thank you. >> you look fantastic. >> thank you. charles: too much money in politics, i think a lot of people would say? >> i think a lots of people are worried that it has the uber wealthy buying a message. i think if you increase some limits with the campaigns, i think you will see the super pacs, maybe going by the way side. but right now, -- if you really want to make a powerful punch, in politics, you are going to go and put your money in a super pac, have you control over the message, and what you got, it is heavy control. if you want control, go to a cyber pack. charles: noel thank you. >> a brand-new tax hike kicking the middle class right in the butt, today we have proof it is hitting harder than this head butt. >> would you not eat my

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are. >> i've got a mandate to help middle class families, and families that are working hard to try to get in the middle class. >> fight for middle class families, middle class families. charles: sorry mr. president, it looks like the middle class is gets blasted, consumer confidence plummeted to one year low, retail sales they fell for

fourth state week. washington watcher tina korber said, blame the payroll tax hike that kicked in. i saw that number i was shocked. lowest since november 2007, you say this is payroll tax? >> no surprise. americans have less money in their pocket. the payroll tax hike is a part of that. i want to go back, and really, highlight history of payroll tax hike, the entire time, it has been shameless politics, the president proposed cut in 2010, he said it would create jobs and stimulate the economy, it did not do that but it did add to social security deficit, it did one good thing, it allowed americans to keep more of their own money in their pockets, i am in favor of. now, congress and president have

allowed a tax to go up on americans at a time they can least afford it, we heard president say again and again, he does not care -- he cares about middle class families but, i think it is evident he does not care, he cares about his growing government. charles: do you remember videos that we're on white house web site, all of the people that really showed you how. the extra money meant to them, really life and death, tear jerkers that touched your heart like wow we nod need to make sue everyone gets payroll tax cuts, they are up there after they were -- they hiked them back. you know, i'm with you, i agree people should keep more of their money they ern it is clear that president, was not being honest when he said he would not hike taxes on the middle class. >> you said not in favor of looting social security, i want to drive that home, americans cannot afford the payroll tax

hike, we cannot afford social security, we think this tax hike is bad, we have another thing coming to us, because real rate of taxation, is always the spending level, if remaintain government program we have, we'll have to continue borrowing money or we'll have to raise taxes, we cannot afford to pay our trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities just by taxing the rich, taxes will go up on all of us. charles: you may not too have been surprised with that consumer confidence number, but i was, because. the dramatic decline, it was sharp, and also by the way people, asked about future, what do you ex peck that came down. people just, are really concerned and worried, i think more and more americans feel that teen is tina is right, maye president was not being honest. >> not just payroll tax hike, but i think also general climate

of uncertainty, in washington, and if americans do not want higher taxes, then they have to demand spending cuts and demand entitlement reform, and they will have to vote in a different president and congress. charles: imagine that, you may have to go with throwing granny off the cliff, thank you so much tina coreby. charles: imagine buying a house, and then discovering it was the the scene of a gruesome crime. >> i do have to tell you what happened to the last owners. >> they done die in here did they? >> yes, murder-suicide. >> we'll take it. we know a place where tossing and turning have given way to sleeping. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta®(eszopiclone) can help you get there.

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we have entered our two minute hold. cabin venting has been inhibited. copy that. sys two, verify and lock. command is locked. flight computer state has entered auto idyll. three, two, one. the falcon 9 has launched. preparing for nose cone separation. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers. charles: well a real life horror story for a pennsylvania homeowner, weeks after moving

into a house she just bought, a woman found out that a murder-suicide took place there a year earlier, she sued for her 'mon back she lost, marla, said no way but kelly said she has a case, kelly, i have to tell you, boy, this whole thing gives you the heebie-jeebies, it seems that despicable you would sell someone a house that there of a murder sue side in a year earlier and not tell them. >> it is ethics in business dealing, pennsylvania does not have a law to disclose this. but most people would think that common decency would prevail, in this case, a woman who is a widow with her children, and they lost their dad, and they did not know this, a $610,000 house, and the issue is her the kids are having nightmares, it is stressful, somebody some have told her.

charles: if someone was buying a car, they would get all kinds of reports on who had it before, what damage had been done. but, you say that was not warned in this case? >> well, i mean -- i'm sorry, for kelly -- for marla. >> it is not warranted in this case, unfortunately there is not a law that protects buyers in this is,. there is fiscal defects to be disclosed but horrific crime or acts, that occur are not covered by pennsylvania law. and not covered in most states, so, what needs to be done is people need to go to the their ladies and gentlemen later -- legislate oars and ask to give buyers more protect, but tonight say something interesting about this case, the first buyers after the murder suicide bought it for 450,000, why is that price so much lower, 8 months

later, it has been sold to the woman in court for 610,000. she should have potentially done her due diligence in a big investment, asked her realtor why the big gap from first buyer to her. there is something she could have uncovered but this is a morale dilemma not a legal dilemma. until the law is in place. charles: hold on, hold on. you know, we'll move to next topic, but i have to tell you, if it is am bigious, it could go either way, we'll see this will go to an appeals and we'll see what happens. everyone agrees on the morality, marla, and kelly, there is another thing i want to help me hash out, 17 families are suing a power company on long island, new yorkers lost their home among dozens that were burned to the ground after hurricane sandy. they claim that fires would have to started if the electricity

had been turned off, and each of the families, they are asking for a million bucks each, kelly uyou say that is a fair price, marla said don't blame the power company. >> i think that plaintiffs have to show not only compensatory damages but punitive damages, a million dollars is a lot of money, they have to prove that power company had a duty, and they breached that duty, but the power company turned off electricity in certain parts of the city they are in control of, there might be a reason why they level this sessions of this city on, it will need to be divulged, and could experts probably to testify, why they did certain safety and did not in other areas. charles: someone might call it incompetance, i want to let you know that power company in question, long island power authorities, they declined to comment on this days. but kelly, there is oning or

zain that coulningorganization d off the pow that ever power of r company. >> yo you are right, the homeows could not have turned it off, the they lost everybody, the pour company knows it is foe seeable, the people had no way to protect themselves, i think they have great lawsuits. it is unfortunate. and i think that power company should have taken it a step further, and realized it is within their control to shut it off, and go section by section but they done, and they didn't offer that option. charles: we showed the devastation on the screen, it looked like hiroshima, and you know, marl ato be quite frank, to me a million is small for what they went through, not just assets of homes but in middle of

winter, and fear. a million bucks, i'm shocks they are not seeing for 10 each. >> this is unfortunate what happened to them, i agree there is great lawsuit, it will be a battle because what they have done is gone to insurance companies and fema, they have exhausted, everything they can. and unfortunately no one is there for them. to give them the money, or damages, that the people suffered through. so, this could take years from the power company to compensate them, will they get a million dollars that will be up to a judge or jury. charles: one of real sad realities it will be a long way down the road, but perhaps establish some sort of precedence, i have to go back too house with the killing in it. marla, you know, if there no law that says you don't have to

divulge it, in is no law saying you have to keep it a secret either. >> well, absolutely, again, have to be careful about our separation of power do -- you don't want to come in say, i don't like how it came about, i would not want to live in a murder-suicide house either, unless there are laws, the judge cannot just make laws up, then that could cause dangerous precedence. charles: kelly, would a judge made a law up, if he decided in this case there was a serious wrong done to the buyer of the house? >>well, the thing about is, the case is based on fraudulent misrepresentation it will come down to if the supreme court will consider it. there has been an appeal, it went against the purchasey, the judge has foe loo -- to look ats there a false mess reputation made, did she rely on anything

that sell orer real estate agent told her. it does not look like that is the case here, the judge will follow the lay, and not negate it, but the question is, did they skirt the law? did they try to get around it? did they tell a an untruth. for those of us that understand that, you know there are cases of paranormal activity, people say it should be disclosed, certain states dohmann dat stat. charles: you have fantastic legal mines. see you. charles: drones in the air, in the sea and in university course the sea and in university course books, now said college [ woman ] if you have the audacity to believe your financial advisor should focus on your long-term goals, not their short-term agenda. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do. face time and think time make a difference. at edward jones, it's how we make sense of investing.

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charles: drones, everywhere, sales expected to double over the next decade, some universities offering degrees in flying them, my next guest is worried about them, gilbert is pushing legislation to limit drone use, welcome to the show, we heard this week about immigration reform, and securing borders, use of drones has been brought up. yet, a lot of people on both sides support what you are trying to did, with respect to limiting use. >> we have a very diverse coalition across the divide. that includes not only the virginia tea party federation but aclu. virginia, i'm proud to be working with not just folks normally advancing the same legislation but on this could are lockstep, it is so important to our privacy rights.

charles: what is it you are worried about? >> you know as this technology, and i think most of your viewers think about the unmanned aerial vehicles in terms of military, and uses across the world for the military. but, you know, we have had law enforcement agencies here in commonwealth of verge victim, sayvirginia sayingthey are inten purchasing the technology, we envision potential for abuse that goes with many of the very beneficial uses they would have you believe in. charles: okay. get -- this you know give us share examples of potential abuse, what would i be worried about? >> well, sure, i don't think that any of us thought we would live in a world where there might be a permanent state of surveillance over us, we're caught on video and cameras dozens of times a day as it is, but imagine a permanent state of

surveillance under the guy guisr your own benefit. the vehicles can possess technology to see what we're doing, hear about what we're doing, and smell what we're doing, and detect thermal images, that we need it rein in the technology, and have a framework for its uses by government agents before it is deployed. charles: you have a great point, unless you are a guy who wrote 1984 in 1948, you did not think that big brother would be this big, it feels like it is unstoppable. listen we give up all our information fle through google searchers ask what we offer on facebook and twitter. do you think it is inevitable this is a way of life. >> this is why we told many folks who want to say just no drones, you cannot put technology back in the box, but you can try to set up a

framework where the law enforcement or agents that regulate us, who use them have to get a warrant, and make sure that data not used in a way that violates our privacy rights, and that citizens have an opportunity too have public input before the technology is deployed. as you said, i have beenelling people, i would much rather live in a world envisioned by our founding fathers than one envisions by george orwell. charles: before i go, i have heard, some worries about how easily they could be highjacked. you know, radio control, maybe, you know, just not really tough even that hard. i've seen demonstrations, is that something else you look for in safeguarding us physically? >> we're aware of that and the threat and aware of the folks that have proven they can hack and hijack this technology. any of the systems that are deployed domestically could be

highjacked and used as weapons again us. you just want to make sure that we've give then some now the before an agency deploys the technology and becomes dependent on it, we don't know where this technology leads, we want to make sure we set up a framework ahead of time to get ahead of the game, you can't put it back in the box but you can try to be vigilant with our privacy rights. charles: have you a good issue here, thank you very much. >> thank you. charles: leaked government document, and accusation of fudged numbers and billions of taxpayer money on the line, the global warming the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annual bonus. and everyone but her likes 50% more cash, but i have an idea. do you want a princess dress? yes. cupcakes? yes. do you want an etch-a-sketch? yes! do you want 50% more cash?

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leaked and it shows 20 years of overstated global warming are they fake numbers to push their agenda? we will ask our panel. gary, would the u.n. stoop so low? >> no. if it is hot it is global warming it is freezing it is global warming if there -- if there's a hurricane or not one for five years it is global warming. going back 20 or 30 years it was global cooling the pollution block the sun now they can talk carbon tax, the u.n. tax of course, i get a lot of flak for saying this. charles: you were slightly the oldest.

[laughter] >> i don't think it is necessary that everything is global warming but geologically we really don't know. how much is man-made? we don't know. the biggest problem is if it is true or not true, the fact the federal government takes it upon himself to spend umbrageous amounts of money to correct it. but they are not. you have stolen truck 20 times over where we spent an enormous amount of money that makes no sense economically. charles: the scientists believe this wholeheartedly

and this is a greater sense of urgency to take care of this as opposed to other issues. i assume you believe the scientist in this case that americans can spend money on? >> of course. it happens right now but 98 percent of climatologists believe there is climate change and it is human made. most of and in the pocket of big industry to bamboozle the american public not to address this issue. it has severe economic crisis. , adjusted hurricane sandy costas? they happen every couple years instead of every hundred years. it is not have been set --

happenstance your on the wrong side of data and the wrong side of history. charles: the 90% they all passed standardized test to get the title? [laughter] >> i assume they did them for graduate school. charles: i am just joking. >> i love it if you disagree with the template you are a bad person and don't know what the hell you talk about but whether does change i'm an environmentalist we should do something about it that this constant crisis and may be more money to fix the crisis. we hear not only billions and hundreds of billions but to do studies on top of their studies